Why Being Driven Nearly Destroyed VARA’s Founder Jonas Muff

this feeling of standing out, the need to stand out, actually is deep down a feeling to not be enough. Once you understand that, changes, I think. Almost everyone is on some level shaped and driven by fear, and fear of not being enough, fear of not being seen, of not belonging. I think what we can change is how aware we are of it.

This is Melanie. And this is Christian. You're listening to Follow the Gradient, the weekly podcast with actionable insights about how to build a business while staying sane. Our inner well-being is something we in society rarely talk about. But today we do. We're speaking with Jonas Muff today, founder of Vara, a top AI healthcare company. Jonas wrote a widely shared essay called The Curse of Being Driven, where he shares a deep mental reckoning. A collapse during a crucial fundraising moment forced him into a years-long investigation. What actually drives me? Is it purpose or fear? Is ambition a calling or just a defense mechanism? In the next 45 minutes, we unpack the curse of being driven, why founders confuse action with avoidance, and how Jonas rebuilt his ambition on a radically different foundation. This is one of the most honest conversations we've had on the show. If you want to enjoy more of our content and dive deeper into Startup Land, check out our twice weekly newsletter at followthegradient.io.

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Jonas, in your essay, The Curse of Being Driven, you describe being in a Tel Aviv hotel room, unable to leave bed at a make or break moment, even though everything was on the line. When you look now back at that moment, what did that collapse teach you about where your drive actually came from? Yeah, great question. Well, so I think important for context. And this is also how it played out in my mind back then. Up to this moment, almost everything in my life was always a steep, steep upwards trajectory. Never really faced failure or rejection up to this point. And I think over the years, building the organization in Switzerland, then joining Meranteks in Berlin as one of the first employees, then starting a health tech AI company, a deep tech company right from business school, basically. I really started to kind of develop this story in my mind of this guy that starts a company right away and deep tech company, you know, at its core. then, you know, during this first bigger external fundraising round, and this, was just the first time I faced all the pushback, all the rejections. I think it was by far more than a hundred rejections from VCs back then. And therefore for the first time I really you know, faced that my story, that story I told myself all the time, the identity I had built in my mind basically was severely at threat. And back then, you know, this feeling of not being functional anymore, the feeling of not performing anymore and not getting out of bed in the morning and especially in the middle of a funding round. I think back then I saw it as probably my biggest failure ever. And I was even shameful about this, I would say, because Uh, you know, as entrepreneurs, we, we learned that we have to, we have to push through and we, you know, we have to be resilient and we need to be bold, even when others don't believe in us. Um, and with this story in mind and the self-worth that I took out of the story, basically, I saw this as a, a huge, as a huge failure. That was really an identity threat at its core. And I think back then I didn't see it that way. Um, but now looking back, I think there was the, there was the start of a, of a huge process, a start of a.

of a transformation, if you want to use those big words. Because I think it was the first time I started to realize that maybe the story actually isn't real, right? Maybe it's just mind-made basically and made up. And I think now when I look back, I think the big journey over the last couple of years started there. so I grew very convinced that in breakdown, there's the chance for breakthrough. And I think in my case, was really the that I could separate myself from this identity, the story that I told myself all those years. I already have a hundred follow-up questions on your points there, but maybe for the very beginning, for the people who also haven't read your essay yet, The Curse of Being Driven, how would you describe how that curse feels like from the inside, really going day to day? I think when I speak to people that are in similar situations, it's... It can be very different for others, but in my case, I think the best way to describe it, I think, is a feeling of paralysis. So basically just the feeling that, you know, in my mind, in the head, you know, I'm wide awake and I'm spinning scenarios nonstop. The overthinking never really stops. And I'm even, you know, during nights, you know, wide awake, but the body simply isn't right. The body is so exhausted that It's very difficult to move and get out of bed in the morning. were times when, like in Tel Aviv, for example, the question we just discussed, that I couldn't get out of bed until 10, 11 a.m. in the middle of a funding round. So the middle when it actually matters, I couldn't get out of bed. But in my mind, it's not that I was sleeping. In my mind, I was awake. Just the body wasn't. And I think now in retrospect, that can be very well explained because, as I said before, the story was that threat all the time? I felt I need to defend myself from danger all the time, basically. And it's, it's well known that, when we, when we face, danger, when an organism faces danger, there's a, either a fight or a flight response. And I think in my case, that was just a flight or freeze, a freeze response, better said, right. That, the, body basically shut down. It, it, it wasn't able to, to, to perform any more the way I was used to. so that is, I think a good way to, to describe at least.

in my case, what happened in my case, I the other thing that really stands out and also shocked me at times was that in those in those moments, especially back then, of course, when it was all very, very fresh, I always had the feeling that everyone basically is against me, right? So everyone and everything somehow happens against me. So I had this like hyper focus on on myself all the time, and that everyone wants to something against me basically, and I need to constantly defend myself against the world and against everything that happens to me. And I think this almost paranoia feeling basically, I think is the second thing that if it happens in a more subtle way today, it's always an early sign. And because it's a really terrible feeling that you have to feeling you're alone against everything happening to you. So I think those are the two things I think that describe that feeling really well, the feeling to... not be able to move anymore, paralysis and the paranoia that everyone and everything had conspired against you. I think that's a really good breakdown of what it can feel like. And you later wrote that the engine wasn't purpose but fear. And you talked about this paranoia and this inability to move. So when did you realize that distinction purpose versus fear and how did that now change the way you build VARA? I would say it took a surprisingly long time, I think. And that's also one of the reasons why I wanted to write and why I published this essay in a very open and candid way, because maybe it can shorten the time it takes for others. I think in my case, what you know, after this you breakdown, whatever you want to call it, that, you know, during that first funding round, where I really felt I need to change something, otherwise I cannot continue with this journey. And I cannot continue being an entrepreneur. If I don't get to the bottom of things. Then I started therapy, for example, and you know, many other things. And I learned very early, actually, very quickly that it's very important to me for some reason to, to be special to stand out, right? That was something I recognized quite early.

And that's, you know, the drive to stand out and to be special is, you know, my, my, almost my, my, operating system, basically, that's, that's, that keeps me going all the time. what I didn't realize until quite some time later, a couple of years later, actually, was that this feeling of standing out, the need to stand out actually is, is a, is deep down a feeling to not be enough. a way, it's like, trying to be special because deep within I simply didn't feel special, right? I think that's, that's often described as vulnerable narcissism out there, for example, or grandiosity in in psychology language. And I think that really describes well what I mean with the curse of being driven and, and me being driven by by fear, ultimately, and not and not purpose, at least not only. And I think that I realized only quite late. And I think that is the one of the key messages that I hope others can learn about much earlier because once you understand that everything changes, I think. Now to your question how this changes the way I act as an entrepreneur and how I built my company, Mara. I think one thing that is maybe a bit sad news, but I think the fear will always be there. I think it's so deeply ingrained in us once, those that feel the same way as me, but I think... Even generally, can say that almost everyone is on some level shaped and driven by fear. Fear of not being enough, fear of not being seen, of not belonging. And I think that fear is part of us. I think what we can change is how aware we are of it. And I think there's a continuum between being fully aware and see the emotion, the fear. coming up in everyday situations, especially under pressure. On the other side of the continuum is like being completely oblivious to it and be constantly, let's say run by it on autopilot. And I think what you can change is to basically be more aware in more situations more often. And I think that is what I'm trying to live as an entrepreneur and what makes me much more intentional and...

and sharper and clearer as a leader as well of the company I'm building. I mean, you bring up a point where I have seen various vcs also that that actively say that they are supporting, like founders and the best ones are the ones with traumas and things like that. so there is something about it. And I think like many, many listeners and just like founders out there can can connect. to what you're saying. You're not the only one out there having that drive, which also has a good and bad side. I had another talk with a founder who said like, basically, my strength is also my weakness. And I think it goes also into into that direction. And you also connect this entrepreneurial obsession with performance in neuroscience. They call it this default mode network hyperactivity. So the brain self-story on loop, which he also described can also go into like a negative loop. you said you will want to talk about it in order to also help others. But how can founders or also operators recognize when that mechanism is running them and it's really not for the benefit but really for the curse, so to say. Maybe let me first comment on what you said before, that's, you know, to a certain extent, VCs, for example, they even search for people that have something to prove, right? Because they, they'll be able to see the future where others that others don't yet, and they will be able to push through, you know, challenging times where when others give up because they, they have something to prove, and so they'll, they'll stick, they'll stick to it. And I think in a way, you can even argue that for for some of the biggest problems to be solved in the world.

often through technology, through deep tech, through breakthroughs, some people may simply have to suffer, right? In a certain way. It's a bit of a provocative statement, but I think there's some truth to it. So yeah, fully agree that the strength is often also the biggest weakness and in suffering that can also be the path to building stuff of tremendous value. Now to your question, how does default mode network hyperactivity shows itself. Let's say in a way that I think most entrepreneurs, even those that haven't controlled themselves a lot about it. think it's the easiest thing to explain it. what I think a lot of people could relate with is overthinking. I think that's something I've seen in so many founders and high-performance operators in the startup world that we... We know that we sometimes have to plan for the future. We have to make strategies. We have to think in scenarios. need to present scenarios to our boards, to our employees. We need to plan for the future. That's totally healthy at this part of the job. But there's always a time where we cannot foresee the future. There's always uncertainty. And in a way, that's part of the very game, right? Because every VC-backed company needs to have the potential to return the funds. So by definition, Every VC back company has to pursue a vision that very well can also go wrong. And so there's always uncertainty and we need to take big decisions, big bets under crazy uncertainty. And I think what I've seen in myself and also many others is that we sometimes try to not accept this uncertainty on a deep emotional level. It's just very dangerous, very stressful to the story that we tell ourselves. And so we find ourselves in yet another conversation with our co-founders, yet another long strategy document with yet another program contract list for certain decisions. at some point that becomes very obsessive and definitely not healthy anymore. think even in that behavior, there's even a lot of the suffering actually, right? Sometimes it's super crazy, but sometimes we are more afraid of failure than what failure actually feels like when it happens.

So the uncertainty is what really seems to create the suffering. And I think there's endless overthinking loops. think that's the default mode network. And therefore I think that's where you can spot that self-story on loop, how you called it. I'm wondering if that, because I agree to everything you say and also to the different observations. And I'm sometimes wondering if also another... quite simple reason for that is age. mean, so many people in the startup land are like, let's say a maximum of 35 or something around that, right? But then if you look at statistics and don't quote me on that, but I've heard these statistics that like the top 1 % high growth startups are usually founded by people with 45 and above, right? And you, you like, they don't navigate LinkedIn, so you don't see them. But the statistics are pretty clear on that. And obviously you have more experience in your career when you are older, right? And people always say there is a lot of downsides to it, maybe, but there is certainly the upside that you have been through certain situations and been through the overthinking. fully agree. Of course, as you say, there's downsides, right? To starting companies in a progressed age, you have more to lose. et cetera. yeah, I think everything you said fully resonates. think ultimately, we need to somehow figure out that the story that we tell ourselves, that often we can probably call that ego, even though it's a very overused term, but the ego is often holding us back. it makes us worse in decision-making. Our judgment will be worse because sometimes we take decisions for the sake of maintaining our self-story. We treat employees maybe worse than we should or better than we should depending on situation. I think it's very often fear of disappointing expectations, fear of disappointing ourselves, the fear of not living up to the ideals of what founders supposedly should be like. And I think with progressed age, we hopefully, I mean, I'm still quite young, but I can definitely compare myself to a couple of years ago, And I think you just take yourselves and...

and your mind a bit less seriously over time. I think that makes us better entrepreneurs think that may be one of the probably many things going on why the statistic, you know, is is how it is. In our prep session, you pointed me also to the work of neuroscientists like, for example, Manish Geirne, who studies how psychedelics and meditation quiet the brain's default mode network. So basically the network in the brain that drives this rumination and the inner narrator. From your own experience with meditation or altered states, what have you learned about then calming that inner noise without losing the ambition? Because you're still running your startup and I hear you that you don't want to stop that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. think it's even, I would even go one step further that I, not only that I don't want to stop, but I, I want to do it more and, and take potentially also even bigger, bigger risks and bigger bets. because now the, relationship with my own drive is that, you know, it, will lead to emotions. Yes. And before I was always avoiding those emotions and emotions were seen as a, as a, as a danger, as a threat. And that led to. all the experiences we already talked about in the beginning of the conversation. And now I think I see emotions more as a chance to live a very fulfilling and deep life, even though negative emotions, of course, on a societal level, we always try to prevent them and avoid them. But I think also in negative emotions, there's the path to just a more fulfilled being basically. And so I think being an entrepreneur, taking big decisions, having difficult conversations, really go all in basically.

I think is strong path to living according to this life philosophy. And I think when it comes to meditation and all that, let's say, inner work of becoming more aware, more mindful, I find it often a bit of a tragedy that meditation still has this, I would say, stigmatized reputation. I speak to a lot of entrepreneurs and almost everyone says, you know, I tried a meditation already because they have read it somewhere or they've heard about it in a podcast. And then they stop again after a few... after a few times trying because it doesn't doesn't help for them basically, or doesn't doesn't do the job. And I think very often people stop because they expect that meditation quiets their their minds, quiets the quiets the thoughts, maybe even having no thoughts at all. And I think that's a very, very big misconception. I think meditation is not about about not having thoughts, it's about becoming aware of how many thoughts we actually have. I think it's, in a way, almost the opposite. And what I mean by that is that, you know, a lot of the thoughts are they're happening, but they're not really, we're not really conscious about them. They happen all the time. And we go through life constantly thinking with ourselves and we, are very little aware of how often we actually think and also the patterns and how, some of those patterns simply are so harmful to us. They, and also made up right. lot of the fears how they, silently, you know, run us, but they, don't actually make much sense. And so I think meditation is all about first even seeing know how much is going on, then secondly, also realize that some of the thoughts I had yesterday, they even if I want to reproduce them today, they simply not there anymore, right? They it's how fleeting how fleeting everything is, and how quickly everything changes in our minds. And and through this, I think we, we learn to, to just not take ourselves too seriously anymore, right? It's, it's, think a lot about hearing the thoughts, but not not not listening to them in that sense. And I think that's what meditation actually is about. And, and now I think that's Back to my statement that I want to build companies even more than before. It's in hard situations, in hard moments, and in emotionally charged moments that the thoughts get super loud and they are easiest to see basically. then basically not taking the thought serious anymore is a very powerful state of mind. so building companies gives me the practice or the opportunity to practice this on an ongoing basis.

mean, meditation is one thing. What are simple, evidence-based ways founders can begin to rewire those stress loops, not just theoretically, but really in everyday decisions and routines? I also think it's not just done with three times trying and then giving up, but really, also something especially for people who like you also described, overthink and think their way out of suffering or to try at least. are things that like action-based stuff that you can recommend. think unfortunately, and you probably expected this answer, that there's little things that are simple, right? Because in a way it's like one of the biggest frontiers that we have. And I think simple, quick fixes are very rare. But at the same time, it's a very non-actionable answer to just point that, you know, years of work and therapy and all that, because it's all not very accessible and often, especially founders and operators and startups that by definition have very little time. they face themselves in a difficult situation and they need at least the starting point. I what, of course, I mean, I don't need to mention meditation. It's obviously my number one recommendation, but maybe a bit easier is journaling and journaling, not in a sense of like, you know, writing down pages every day, but more like taking note of situations that were really, really challenging. For example, taking note of, you know, things that we were really scared of, things that we thought were the end of the world, like really you know, scenarios like, for example, a key employee leaving, you know, being afraid of like the one-on-one because that key employee may voice his or her unsatisfaction and, you know, maybe makes statements that he or she would leave very soon. And then basically write such things down. And then a couple of weeks later you realize, well, actually 90 % of what I wrote down never happens. And I think through that, you start to realize, well, something is going on here and I seek to always, the overthinking doesn't seem to serve me well.

I think that is maybe one thing. Other than that, think very simple. I like to just take a bit of space in my calendar before key meetings. doesn't need to be always. And yet, think two, three minutes is enough to become more intentional before a meeting and take a couple deeper breaths or just put the phone away as well. Don't look at the laptop. Maybe just walk around in the meeting room. That does miracles in my experience because you enter the call in a calmer way. even and you digest the call or the meeting afterwards if you do the same again. So that's maybe a good thing as well. Other than that, I think what I really what really helped me is also write down commitments to myself basically how I want to live my life. think generally have a certain life philosophy maybe I think maybe a bit of a big word but couple commitments that you live want to live up to and regularly look at them and and realize also how often you're you're actually distracted from what's really really important to you. So things like that, maybe, other than that, of course, the bigger things like meditation, psychedelics as a pathway to do the work. There's of course also therapy, but that is obviously a way to stigmatize still. But those are all the hardest, harder things, not the simple, accessible things. Just on that note about reflecting and commitment internally, we had a session end of last year about also the annual review template that I do now since a couple of years and I can just highly recommend it because it asks you all the questions. What do you want to do in your life? What is important to you? Be it in business, in life, personal? And it's really a nice way of reflecting on that if you want to have some guidance. This just added to the show notes.

Yeah, that's great. Because also, think maybe what I learned as well as how important is to think really long term, right? I think in decades, not months, and maybe not even years, but really like long term because on a long term, very long term horizon, you start to separate input from output a bit more, you realize that some of the input I put in today may not lead to outcomes yet, but they will in the future if I stick to it. So I think your annual reflection framework is also allowing us to think in long enough horizons. And the second thing is to kind of think in intentions, right? I call it commitments or intentions rather than expectations, because expectations, they always have an outcome in there, right? And very often we can just not influence what happens to us. There's always things we cannot influence and it's suffering often comes from trying to control stuff that is simply not controllable. But if we set commitments and intentions rather than goals and expectations, then we focus on what we can control. And that's also like how we rewire our, our, how our mind works slowly. Right. If we, if we focus on setting intentions and, and commitments rather than, you know, the outcome already kind of tied into it, which we can never control. So that's maybe an addition to, to the framework you just mentioned. You wrote another article, a couple of others, but, one of them is called why people notoriously compare themselves and you write that the need to stand out collides with the need to belong. How have you personally escaped that loop? What we refer to here is certainly one of the most vulnerable things that I put out there already, because I mean, what I ultimately experienced and in a way is also something I still have to kind of figure out with myself, Is that sometimes they're even for friends. entrepreneur friends, I deep within, I somehow hope that they're not better than me, right? Because I myself, for instance, was so dependent on standing out, but then at the same time, they're friends and I also want to be a good friend and also belong as you said in your question. And as you say, those two things collide. And I think that's what I learned in many instances that very often actually emotions collide with each other. very complex human beings and when values or

feelings collide, that creates even more of that overthinking loop that we talked about before. So I think that was the first very important learning that's competition between different values and or fears, maybe in that case. And the second thing is actually that upon closer inspection, you realize that behind both of those things is actually the same thing again, right, which is again, the fear, right, like fear of not belonging and fear of not standing out in a certain way. are the same, they're the same root cause, which is the struggle for, for love and attention ultimately, right. And, and, so I think even understanding this and not running away by looking at some, you know, fancy frameworks or telling us yet another story again, like, you know, a founder that's raced around that I didn't. And so then I, then our minds start to find reasons for that, right. For example, that's well, B2B SaaS scales faster than, than deep tech healthcare AI. or maybe, you know, it's just very difficult to raise in healthcare nowadays, and much easier in other verticals. But those are all those are all just feeding that self story that the ego again, right? They're all excuses. And I think understanding that well, actually, I feel that way, because I'm afraid, you know, it sounds, it sounds very simple. But my experience is really that even only understanding that is already the path the path out. Because then you start to read as well, that's that's that fear. actually, is it really that bad, right? And, and when you practice this through meditation and through other tools, to kind of accept that, that that fear, and then it will go away automatically. And so that is, I think, the other the path through getting out of those infinite loops, as you say, right, of wanting to be special, but at the same time, not wanting to be too special to be always alone, right? So it's like this, this weird conflict can be resolved by looking at the root cause, which is we're afraid of, that's okay. Um, as long as we're aware of it. What's one very practical way for people or founders in that case, um, to separate input from outcomes. So, right. that I do have a high ambition, but my anxiety doesn't necessarily go up as well. We already, a couple of things that has happened before, maybe we can quickly revisit, um, to think in.

commitments and intentions, not expectations, what we discussed before. And the long-term thinking, think those are very important because we often look at the outcome too short-term and underestimate how far the input we put in on a daily basis can actually bring us. And similarly, and I think that's something I found very powerful for me is to think not in decisions in a way, but in taking bets. Taking bets is different from taking decisions because it's more honest. that there's stuff happening that we simply cannot control. in a way, luck or fortune that can go your way or not, will influence the outcome. And you can take the best decision, the best decision quality. can look at everything a hundred times. You can discuss with a hundred other entrepreneurs and learn from their experience, but you never really know what will happen in the future. so even the best decision quality, no matter how much work you put into it, can go wrong. And so I think thinking in that is more... intellectually honest, because it is, you know, all refactoring in that you need some luck as well. And I think those are just like some practical, let's say, reframes that that really helped me. Intentions, not expectations, thinking in bets, decisions, and also expect especially thinking very long term. And don't get too confused about about what's happening in the short in the short term, but really trust that things will will go the way they should when you think in decades. You also, when it comes to practical, like also concepts or like ways, you've also introduced this idea of lucid living. So kind of a different relationship to ambition and emotional intensity. With that in mind, what concrete things have you changed in how you lead since adopting this lucid living? And maybe also like when you look back at just the last year,

Like what did you maybe do differently because you were in the state and what would the driven version without the state have done instead? Yeah, great questions. Yeah, maybe I start with the example and then explain a bit more about it, perhaps. what I'd like to say, think, know, driven is not necessarily a bad thing. think the problem is when we're obsessively driven and especially if you're driven, you're basically driving away from fears that we're not yet ready to confront, I think that's when it becomes a problem. And to give a very practical example without going into detail, examples that are properly better to keep confidential. I think all of us as leaders, we know the situation that there's an employee and you have a role development conversation, keyword development. And I had a situation like that earlier this year with an employee of mine, very talented, amazing potential, super important also. for the company, not to say mission critical. And it was clear that that employee expected the promotion and looking at like the overall situation of the company in terms of like the salary structure and the way we've built the team. I didn't consider this to be the right thing to do at this very point. And I think historically I would have been, let's say afraid is probably a bit of a big word, but I would have had a lot of respect for basically knowingly disappoint someone, especially if that someone is so important for the company. And then basically, let's say find some way, We all, we all know that, you know, figuring out a way to still give maybe a race, but not the title or the other way around and like all those kinds of, you know, tricks and, and stories and compromises. always find some ways, right. And I think that's, that is for the

not for the first time, but like one of the very prominent examples where I did this very differently consciously, I was like, okay, the answer is simply no. Let me sit down with you and explain that that's the best I can do right now. And then really, you know, take the time to explain and, and give the appreciation by by not by by saying to the person what what the person wants to hear, but by being candid and, and give a perspective, a perspective I can stand behind and, you know, very honest, very direct, clear message. And I think that is, you know, I think a good example, right? I was, I was still, I still felt this like respect of what, what if that person leaves and blah, blah, blah. but it's like, yeah, well, there's stuff I cannot influence if the person wants to leave because of that. Well, then maybe the person's not the right fit in the long run. So better now than, than in two years. Right. So I think it's a good example of like small example, but a good one to show how, how I think a lucid approach, to, to such, challenging. situations as an entrepreneur may look like. And I think that's also my general answer to your question, you know, what lucid living slash lucid leading can look like. think it's just I, I try to approach difficult conversations much more directly, you know, be it with, you know, investors, with employees, with my co founder, you know, rather than waiting or finding ways to contextualize a conversation, just go directly in it, have a different conversation, embrace the emotions that come with that. Also, think I really started to live a philosophy I call vulnerability based leadership, which means basically to also be very open, you know, when I don't know stuff, when I have weaknesses, when I did mistakes, when I am afraid of something, then I just tell people even in all hands meetings and stuff like that, so that people see that that's totally okay. And that will lead to a culture of, of embracing vulnerability. And that makes us better because we reduce the ego at work, right? We create a culture where we are not shying away from not being perfect, which doesn't lower the ambition and accountability at all, actually quite the opposite. We don't hide stuff from each other. And that creates trust and accountability actually, in a paradoxic way. Yeah, and also, think maybe last comment, or last thoughts, was reflecting about this recently. Nowadays, I really

I'm much better at accepting when people are unhappy at work in the company. Like when there's, you know, when people are upset with each other and they're upset with me and they're upset with the culture, whatever. Of course, to a certain extent, you need to listen to that and do something about it. Right. But I think if people are upset or if there's, let's say conflict at work, it can also be a sign that people care. Right. And that conflict will lead if people are not ego driven as is that before. And if they, if they're, you know, working on their characters, in a culture that allows them to do so, then conflict and being upset with stuff will make them find solutions and it will make the company much better. I think my employees will need to keep me honest, but I think those are some of the examples of what I think very concisely what we do differently or what I do differently maybe. If a founder in year one or two of their startup came to you in the grip of a burnout, What would be the first conversation you'd have with them? think the problem with that is that I think burnout is a very challenging term. So I think I would avoid that term. because I'm one of those guys that disregards burnout. Not at all. But I think burnout is a very imprecise term. So I think I would try to avoid the terminology. And I think my focus will be on bringing across the message that It's very likely not the workload and the effort and the stress and the meetings that are causing the problem. The solution will not be slowing down and doing less, at least not only. But I will try to bring across the message that it has very likely something to do with the story that that person tells himself or herself and the fears that that story tries to overshadow. And that is very likely, that's the frustrating part. It's very likely not gonna... not going to work in the first conversation, but I will try to kind of tell my story and hope that the person builds some sort of a relatability to me. And then maybe the message sticks sooner than it did for me. said in another conversation that you once told your therapist, my expectation to you is that you had me raise my next big round. And you also said that that mindset is extremely common among founders.

So that you don't necessarily differentiate between what you do in terms of work on your inner self and what you need to do outside in a specific role and execute in a specific role. how do you, how do you, what would be your advice for people to differentiate that? That's a very difficult question. It's difficult because we need to care about our performance, right? It's like we can, there's so much we can learn that's that simply will increase our performance and performance is the goal of learning it, right? For example, how we hold one-on-one meetings, how we sell. There's countless examples where it's great to go out there and learn and do that for the purpose of improving performance. Like when it comes to inner work, the ironic thing is that if performance is the goal, it will very likely not lead anywhere. If performance is not the goal and you do it for... for healing or for your own fulfillment and peace of mind, then it will automatically lead to performance in a way. So it's a bit like, if it's not the goal, you will achieve it. basically, and I think what my conviction is that the ego and the story that we tell ourselves comes with limiting beliefs and they hold us at the comp respect. And so I think if we do the inner work and find ways to dis-identify with that story that we told ourselves. and understand how much of them was avoiding stuff, rather than doing stuff for real purpose, then I think we remove distractions, we remove those limiting beliefs and what's left basically, if you remove a lot of the stuff, a lot of the bullshit we tell ourselves all the day, think then we perform better. So I'm not sure if that is a satisfactory answer, but I think that in a way, inner work for performance cannot be differentiated from inner work for healing because one leads to another, I think.

Before we now come to the rapid fire questions, I really want to cover one last topic and you already mentioned it before, but it's like the topic of psychedelics because in our prep conversation, you also shared an interview with Michael Pollan, the bestselling author who brought modern psychedelic science into mainstream awareness. And Pollan describes psychedelics as reverse trauma and one profound experience that can basically reset mental patterns. You also mentioned, for example, Gabor Mate, the physician known for linking trauma, emotional patterns and performance. And we all link this in our show notes and the newsletter that we have with that with that session. I want to know from you, like how did these ideas and also the possibility of psychedelics also shape your own understanding for your own sake and inner work? And really also because I feel like on a personal level, that psychedelics is something that has been discussed a lot also in the states, in the entrepreneurial communities. But it is still a very sometimes negative related topic where people only know the negatives and it's just like a little bit of question marks. So I really want to learn from you how you perceive that and how it has helped you personally. Yeah, that's a topic that is very important to me. For many things you've already already said, that was a great introduction to the topic. Yeah, for me, it was super important in my journey. I'll try to keep it short. But basically, I did psychedelics assisted therapy. So basically, in a way, very well curated, well organized therapy, therapeutic approach to taking psychedelics in a retreat setting. And what it did to me was I kind of relift the emotions and the experience of my early childhood of my birth. then basically it was surreal in a way and probably it'll sound very crazy. But basically I kind of relift the struggle from being born very early, then getting all the attention from my mother, then basically my sister being born, her going through life much more lightly, whereas I was struggling a lot as a child.

basically emancipating myself from my mother while also kind of being in this like perceived competition with my sister and like trying to stand out and be special in order to kind of win back the attention that I got through surviving that like very early birth and like, know, long time in the incubator as a newborn. So I kind of relive that journey. I think what you said before, how Michael Pollan refers to it, think it's almost like reliving the traumatic experiences. that basically unlocks them and how it felt like right before we can always talk about this on a cognitive level, we can, we can understand that childhood has an influence and we can understand that, you know, what's our parents experienced also have an imprint on us and all that is all cognitively understandable, but it's very, very different when you when you re feel the emotions. And I think that is the impact of that cannot be understated because you, you go out back into into the world and into therapy and into meditation and everything you do. And you've unlocked something. And therefore, I'm, I'm very convinced that psychedelics is one of the if not the biggest lever that we have to fight mental health problems in the world. So super important topic to me. And on your question, I think, yeah, it's, I also think it's, it's, it's different in the US to here, in terms of like how the topic is perceived. Think one covered, however, is in the US. I think a lot of people use it for microdosing purposes, which I think is very different to what I described. But then also there's a whole industry around psychedelics already. Ketamine is already legal. I think that legal status of at least one psychedelic has changed the public perception. And I think maybe culturally, and I don't want to make this, let's say, a cultural critique. We have enough of that out there right now. But I think in Germany and in Europe, we have a bit more of this judgmental. culture, right? It's like we judge others and we don't realize how much we hold ourselves back by doing this. And yeah, I think psychedelics is super, powerful. And it's not for everyone, nevertheless, right? It needs to be done very responsibly. And I wouldn't use this as like medical advice or anything like that. my experience was super, super good. And I think, what I've learned about the neuroscience of mental health issues,

all the basics there and then also the science behind psychedelics, I grew very convinced that it will be an important frontier for the society to solve the mental health crisis that we have today. We move to our last section, the rapid fire questions. I'm going to ask you three questions, short ones, and you can answer the first sentence which comes into your mind. Thanks for sharing.

Okay. What's one belief about ambition you've completely changed your mind about? Well, yeah, that ambition is very often unresolved fear of not being enough, I would say. What's one daily habit you rely on to stay grounded? For me, that would be meditation, even if only five to 10 minutes a day. What's one small experiment a listener could try this week to get a taste of lucid living? Experiment, I would say. Yeah, write down all the things you were worried about during one week and then check it, check the list a couple of weeks later and you will realize that nine out of the 10 worries that you had never, never happened. And I don't want to crash your podcast, but I can just make a big plus one behind that. Cool. Thank you so, much, Jonas. Now, I'm sure that there are people out there that want to learn more about your essays, they want to learn more about you and also your startup. So where do people find you and can learn more about you? Yeah, as you said, building VARA, we are doing really pretty well right now. And we have big ambitions still. And yeah, we write regularly about our progress on LinkedIn, but also on our website. So that would be VARA.ai. And yeah, personally, as you say, I started to write much more. So share some of the perspectives that I have, try to make it intellectually resonant and raw and emotionally, let's say, and I do that on Substack. So you'll find me there and my publication there is called a Founder Search for Meaning. So that will be the key word you'll find it.

We will of course add everything to our newsletter that can be found on our website. So it's just to make sure that people find you. Thank you again for being on the show. I really appreciated the conversation. Also very personal conversation and yeah, talk to you soon. Thank you so much. was a pleasure. Thank you very much.

And this was another episode of our Follow the Gradient podcast. would love to hear from you. How did you like it? What should we improve? Do you have any suggestions, ideas, or dream podcast guests? Please let us know. Thank you and see you again next week!